Goin' Through Changes. Victoria Steeger, CLO, Maryland & David Gragan, CLO, DC.

We discuss ways of implementing change in an organization. Whether it be training needs, providing staff support, or retention issues, the concept of change management draws on many different theories from psychology, behavioral science, etc. Victoria Steeger, Chief Learning Officer of Maryland, and David Gragan, Chief Learning Officer, for DC’s Office of Contracting and Procurement explain the responsibilities of a CLO, and how they work to introduce and manage change in their offices.

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Transcript

Kevin Minor: 0:04

Greetings and welcome to the NASPO Pulse. This is the podcast where we are monitoring issues in state procurement. We've got our finger on the pulse. I'm your host, kevin Miner, and today we're talking about changes in the last few months that may have disrupted your work, maybe an event that you had to accommodate or embrace a new process. If you said no to that last one, I'm going to need you to go back and listen to the beginning again, because you, my friend, were not paying attention. So today on the Pulse, we're talking change management. It's a way of implementing change in an organization Perhaps you're addressing training needs, providing staff support, and it draws on many different theories, from psychology to behavioral science and so on. So that's why today our guests are none other than Victoria Steger, chief Learning Officer for the state of Maryland, and David Gregan, chief Learning Officer for DC's Office of Contracting and Procurement. They're going to talk to us a little bit about the responsibilities of the CLO and how they introduce and manage change in their offices. We're also going to learn why David prefers the term change leadership to change management, and they're going to give us a glimpse into what they think the future of change management looks like.

Kevin Minor: 1:25

Speaking of changes. Our very own Josh Dakota, procurement content manager for NASPO, has graciously agreed to co-host some of these episodes with me. He is awesome. Josh will be back in next week where we can give him a proper introduction and let him say hi to you, but I at least wanted to provide some context so you know who we were talking to. Hey, if you haven't already, make sure you go over and subscribe to the Pulse on Apple Podcasts, spotify, google or wherever you get your podcasts. Check out pulsenaspoorg and read some of the amazing blogs written by your very own NASPO staff. Let's take the pulse.

Josh Descoteaux: 2:01

And so, victoria, you are a chief learning officer in Maryland. And what exactly does a chief learning officer do, and what are your roles and responsibilities in your position?

Victoria Steeger: 2:13

So chief learning officer typically is a very comprehensive position, like many other chief officers, right In that you are responsible for and have some authority with on the development of the workforce and on growing not only the procurement workforce but on developing the workforce that is a consumer of or a vendor to procurement. So I am responsible for statewide, for training for procurement officers, but also for our legislators, our customers at the different agencies and organizations and for our vendors and municipalities, et cetera.

Josh Descoteaux: 2:54

David, same question for you your experience and then just your roles and responsibilities in your position.

David Gragan: 3:04

Yeah, thank you Josh. Similar to Victoria's answer really. I come to it from a very different background but, just like Victoria, my chief learning officer role is largely it's not just the conveying of education, the providing of training. A large part of it really is career development. It's personal development for the procurement professionals that we work with, as well as a number of other people including agencies. I think this Friday of this week I will be conducting executive procurement training to a board of trustees for the DC Retirement Board, and that's kind of an example of some of the external education that we have the opportunity to provide. That sort of explains why does procurement do what we do, the way we do it and, on top of that, why does it take so long. So we get to, you know, we get to actually do a whole lot of client level training, which is probably, for me personally, one of my sweet spots. It's something I've always loved doing.

Josh Descoteaux: 4:03

Oh, that's great, and it seems like it's a trend where you and Victoria are reaching out more broadly, not just for the procurement office itself, but to get everybody on the same page and create awareness, create that education, so people are more understanding of what the procurement office does and why it's important. So I think that these are great initiatives that you both are doing and your experience coming into this position.

David Gragan: 4:37

My experience isn't in learning and development. It was actually subsequent to an early career in the Marine Corps where I did signals intelligence work that had nothing to do with procurement. In fact, just like my clients today, we avoided procurement at all costs. But when I left the Marine Corps I kind of stumbled into the Indiana state government and ended up pretty quickly being the procurement director of that state. So I was the state procurement director in Indiana and then after that Texas, and then I went out to industry and I explained to somebody just yesterday how important that I spent seven years out in industry in the consulting world on procurement best practices.

David Gragan: 5:22

You know, building upon what I had learned as a procurement director, I cannot tell you how valuable I believe the education that I received as a vendor trying to sell or, you know, respond to RFPs in state government. You know how much a better buyer that made me, how much a better CPO that made me. So anyway, after Texas I spent seven years out in the consulting world. I had the opportunity to come back to public service, which is where I'd left my heart, and so I came back as the procurement director of the city of Washington DC and then went on to a federal agency, a brand new federal agency. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, where I was. The federal equivalent of a chief procurement officer, is called the senior procurement executive. So I was in that role for a brand new federal agency for eight years and learned a ton there about the differences and similarities between federal and state and local procurement.

Kevin Minor: 6:18

Wow. So just a little bit of experience, tiny bit, just a bit. So have you two had any collaboration in the past, been able to work together?

Victoria Steeger: 6:30

Dave has been a great collegial mentor. As you noted, we have very different backgrounds that we brought to the CLO role, mine being in higher education, my doctorate's in instructional technology and human performance. So I've done a lot of I call it personal consulting with David, let's say, on the actual meat and potatoes, digging down deep into training, design and things like that. Not that he doesn't know and have a great grasp of it, but I like to think that maybe he uses me as a sounding board and then I will reach out and ask about some procurement things, because similar to what David?

Victoria Steeger: 7:13

said earlier I was the consumer for a procurement officer in a college and I was that vice president that call and say why can't I have it now?

David Gragan: 7:21

Yeah, and likewise I've learned a ton from Victoria. It's good to have people from different backgrounds in your network, and Victoria is obviously an expert, more than anyone I know, in the profession of learning and development. Lean on her quite a bit, for you know the esoterica that goes with. You know the psychometrics of training and testing those kinds of things. Those are pretty foreign to me personally, and probably to most procurement people, and yet they're, you know they're very important and that's why professional certifications, I think, are extremely important, because if the program is done correctly, it's based upon the science of learning. So yeah, I've learned a ton from Victoria.

Victoria Steeger: 8:10

I think we do pretty well. It's not unusual for us to text each other and say, do you have a few minutes? And David might be riding the train home or I'm driving, and we'll get on the phone and chat through some things. And he's taking my whiny phone calls when I'm just, you know, overwhelmed, not having been a state employee before.

Kevin Minor: 8:28

So, david, after this, after this podcast, I'm going to get your phone number because I've got all so I'll just yeah, I've got an 800 number just for you Just for me.

Kevin Minor: 8:39

Well, I don't know if it's appropriate for the recording, but I'll make sure that we get that afterwards. So today we're talking about change management, and we know that change management is a way of implementing change in an organization that's addressing training needs, providing support for staff across the organization and more. And we also know that it draws on many different theories from many disciplines, including psychology, behavioral science, engineering and so on. So what is change management exactly, and can you just hone in on that definition for us a little bit?

Victoria Steeger: 9:17

Change management is actually. A lot of people think it's a new thing and it depends, I guess, on how long you've been working and history. But actually change management would be something that we've done since time really began. If you think about the big changes in your life et cetera. Really, change management is what you described organizing and managing any kind of change but when we address it like this, we're typically talking about something very large and beginning maybe in the 80s with a guy named Cotter John Cotter and moving forward into the 90s, significantly, change management became a business type thing. It was the thing for a while, but what we found is you mentioned it it is based in psychology, it's based in organizational development, it's based in training and learning and brain science Most of the. There are many models of it out there, but if you really think about it, it comes down to three or four steps, which is telling somebody what's going to happen Right and trying to get them at least not apathetic or anti the new thing that's going to happen, and then walking them through whatever's going to happen, whether it's through training or through just communications or through reorging your organization A lot of change isn't always training driven and then at the end it's emphasizing hey, isn't this better?

Victoria Steeger: 10:54

Driven, and then at the end it's emphasizing hey, isn't this better? And typically the best practice is to over communicate it and reinforce it somehow. So it's a pretty simple thing. But you know, if you think about it, it could be equated to the model we have for when someone, when someone passes away, where you go from anger and denial to finally to acceptance. That's a pretty dismal way to look at it. We try to make it more positive than that, but usually any kind of change is resented. So there you go. I mean, to me that's what I would think, but David may have a different take on it?

David Gragan: 11:27

Well, no, I really don't. That was a very good description, I think, of what change management is, and I agree that it really is not a new thing. We sometimes discuss it within different frameworks of leadership. The people that we have the privilege of leading are positioned to accept the change and to be a part of it. So, whatever you know and change is kind of an inevitability right In any workplace and in any family and in any you know, in any life. So, given that it is we, I think we've all, whether we believe it or not, we're all somewhat experts in it, right?

Kevin Minor: 12:07

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean especially in the workplace. I mean change usually is not welcomed, right? I mean, if change is happening, it's usually whether it's for the for better or for worse. It's difficult. I mean I have a routine at work and I do not like when that routine is is invaded in any way.

Josh Descoteaux: 12:30

I don't even like when an icon on my computer is in a different spot when I open my computer up. Exactly. I mean, that can ruin my day. So a big change in a system or a big change of of your daily routine that really kind of changes the whole entire dynamic of just your mundane day to day work is a big deal. And so, David, you had mentioned the leadership aspect in that. Can you describe that just a little bit more and what the difference is between change leadership and change management?

David Gragan: 13:03

Yeah, I just actually, when it comes to management, I typically insert the word leadership in almost any discussion, and I think it's because of you know the background I think I mentioned earlier I was a Marine, but I so I was trained in a leadership intensive environment, but before that I didn't mention this.

David Gragan: 13:21

But I actually grew up from the time I was born. I was in a Marine Corps family, my father was in the Marine Corps for 30 years and I so my model as I grew up through my most formative years, my adolescence, was, you know, was was a person that really understood the principles of leadership and and the traits of a good leader. Not only understood them, but lived them. So I, I, I have always thought that management is a little more sterile than leadership, which can be very emotional, and I, I tend to, you know, I just tend to think when I think about change, especially how important the traits of a good leader are. So I, I, anytime I'm offered the opportunity to talk about change management, I, I typically will talk, I will frame it in the context of change, leadership, and I'll tell you some of the traits that I'm talking about. I mean when I, when I think of the way I was trained as a young lieutenant in the Marine Corps at Quantico and I, by the way, was commissioned through an Air Force program.

David Gragan: 14:17

So I have a legitimate ability to compare. You know other branches I think of the service but I, you know, after four years at the Air Force Academy, I'm a second lieutenant at Quantico and learning and understanding the 14 traits of a good leader in the Marine Corps, and among those are things like dependability and integrity. You know things that make a good leader, like common knowledge, right. We all understand those, but one of the ones that I think is absolutely most relevant to change is enthusiasm. Most relevant to change is enthusiasm, and so when we are offered the position to lead a change, when we in our positions as chief procurement officers or managers within a procurement office or, frankly, dads and moms when we are in a position, when we're privileged to be in the position of leadership, we in the process of change. I think we each have a responsibility to be enthusiastic about it, and that first means you can't fake enthusiasm. In the process of change, I think we each have a responsibility to be enthusiastic about it, and that first means you can't fake enthusiasm.

David Gragan: 15:15

By the way, so that first means you really you have to sincerely, you know, understand to be behind the change. And those, to me, are really foundational and fundamental leadership concepts that apply to, you know, to the topic of change management.

Kevin Minor: 15:30

You know, that one, that one surprises me, but if I really think about it someone a supervisor or someone in a leadership role who's unmotivated or unenthusiastic I'm definitely not going to be enthusiastic about my change or my job or what projects I have due.

Josh Descoteaux: 15:47

I would say that that trickles down to, like Kevin just mentioned, a direct supervisor. So the leadership starts at the top and then with the enthusiasm it trickles down. But you need that buy in, that collective buy in, because as it trickles down everybody has to be on the same page. So if you hear a supervisor kind of complaining about what they have to do or the changes that are made, that definitely affects the, the frontline workers as well, because they've heard something that is negative about it. So they're already going in with a kind of a negative mindset. So just ask Victoria, I'll ask you, you know, kind of, what is a, what is a remedy for that? It just seems like it's a very sensitive topic that in your day to day office life that change is not welcomed. You need complete buy-in.

Victoria Steeger: 16:34

Absolutely One of the models quote unquote in change management. It's called ADKAR A-D-K-A-R and it's an acronym, of course. A is awareness make somebody aware of a change. D is desire instill a desire for the change, and that's where we are now. K is knowledge typically training, but not always. A is ability, and that's where you take your knowledge of it and you change that into applied. So, in other words, josh, with your example, that icon got moved and you get used to it.

Victoria Steeger: 17:07

And that's your ability now, now you're comfortable with it, you're moving on. And then R is reinforcement, and that's the part we really are as a society just terrible with usually. But the awareness is where you let people know, okay, that the desire, I think is a really where David's talking a lot about, and as a leader, we tend to use something called cascading communications.

Josh Descoteaux: 17:31

So the leader says here's what we're going to do.

Victoria Steeger: 17:34

And then the next level managers say to their people here's what we're going to do. And as we've all played that game of communication, eventually the message gets diluted, it gets changed, it gets interpreted. Not because anybody's purposefully doing it bad, not because anybody's purposefully doing it bad. But I think if that leader starts off with a clear-ish as much as they can vision of the change that's coming, the positive outcomes of it and yet they're honest about it won't be easy if it's not going to be easy, but we will get there and here's why it's going to be good at the end. Typically, humans aren't afraid of doing something that's harder. They just are afraid of doing something where they say why? And nobody can answer it.

Kevin Minor: 18:20

Absolutely. It's like that telephone game you all send a circle, start with the word bubble gum and end up with the word toilet paper, sometimes yeah.

Josh Descoteaux: 18:30

And I was I was getting from. From that point of view, David, I was just going to touch on what you had said about enthusiasm and that kind of breeds creativity, and so I'm really interested in the procurement profession as a whole and how rigid it is and the kind of confines that you need to be within and it doesn't promote a lot of creativity and kind of looking at these new solutions that could take hold, specifically with change management, and it seems like you know from a leadership definition that you had described, they're there to inspire the staff in a very genuine way. They're there to inspire the staff in a very genuine way. And so, when we're talking about creativity and that trickling down to everybody that's involved and really inspiring that buy-in, what are some tips and tricks for procurement professionals when it comes to creativity and thinking outside the box?

David Gragan: 19:31

No, you make a really good point, josh, about. We operate in a control system and it's nothing we should be ashamed of or embarrassed by. You know we are part of the control function of government, but that does not mean we have to be a burden to the people that we're trying to serve trying to serve. So, notwithstanding the fact that, just like the HR director and the finance director, the procurement director and all of the people that work within that function have a responsibility, it's a very, very important public facing responsibility to manage a process that is necessarily bureaucratic, it's necessarily filled with curbs and rules and regulations and constraints, but that should never, ever, should not constrain us from thinking creatively, because what people come to us for is help. They don't come to us because they just like hanging around with the current people, if anything, that's probably the opposite of the way they feel. They come to us because they need help. And if they need help and they come to us because we're the experts, you should be able to impress them with your ability to be an artist, not a painter, you know. You should be able to impress them with your ability to be a chef, not a cook, you know. Don't tell them what's in the book. Don't tell them this is how we do this. Tell them listen attentively, number one, and then be the artist. Prove to them that you're the expert that you can help them get to. Yes, because you know what I've already figured out. The right answer is yes, and the people that come to us for help, that's the answer they're wanting to hear. It may be not that way, but here's another way. So you know, we should be being creative every single day, and we who've again, you know, been served as chief procurement officers, I think that we need to sort of inculcate within our staffs the people that we work with the ability to be unconstrained in the way they think. It doesn't always mean that we'll do everything that they come up with, but never disallow your people from thinking in the blue sky, thinking creatively.

David Gragan: 21:45

I will tell you and I'll let Victoria speak after my 10-minute screed here I will tell you one of my favorite quotations from years and years ago that I learned was and I'm going to paraphrase it because I won't get it verbatim, I'm sure but something like never tell people how to do things, just tell them what you need and let them impress you with their creativity, so that I've tended to think about that often, when it's easy for me to tell people how to do things. But what am I doing? Am I really helping the next generation step into the roles that I've, you know, had the benefit of having in my life? Probably not. If I don't let them, if I don't give them room to be creative and to, you know, push up against those barriers and constraints and the curbs and all of the rules and regulations that we deal with, if I don't allow them to ask well, why then? You know, then I'm constraining them and I'm therefore not part of the solution. So, anyway, I'll stop there and let Victoria take over.

Victoria Steeger: 22:50

I told David we were chatting about creativity the other day and I told him I always looked at it like my background. I know we all have a different kind of background. He mentioned his Marine Corps thing. I was a band director and got my master's degree in conducting and so I look at, but when you can't decide what you want to do with life, you do what we do. Every few years you change what we do. Every few years you change careers and in fact, according to the Department of Labor, a person entering the workforce now will change careers seven times before they're 35. Not jobs, careers. But if you think of it as a conductor of a symphony, the conductor of a symphony cannot play every instrument there typically Not at all, but they know what their players, at least minimally, should be able to do yeah and what they stand in front of a symphony to do is to say now, do more, impress me yeah, show me the band director, probably also not a an expert in each instrument, right?

Kevin Minor: 23:45

so they have to rely on the player, right? You know, you got a first first chair trumpet player and then you have to rely on that player to lead his section or her section.

Victoria Steeger: 23:56

Absolutely. But they also I mean they'll know what they can do at a minimum. They'll know the rules, they'll know what they can expect, but they won't know what can they do beyond that. And in the sense of what you're saying, they will say now show me what all you can do. Let's make music together, let's make this better than anything we've seen before and give them the area, the scaffolding, you know, just a little bit of structure around it so they can do that in a safe and comfortable-ish environment.

Victoria Steeger: 24:28

You don't want to encourage creativity and then let somebody fall on their face publicly. But I think it's really critical that we're going to get lots of new employees all the time who are not always going to have a background in what we've done or am doing. I'm one of them, as far as I know, david you can correct me, but I don't know any other chief loading officer or similar in other states that didn't come from procurement. The vast majority I've met all were working in procurement, were good at training or liked it, or got a master's degree in it or you know something.

Josh Descoteaux: 25:03

Yeah, I really want to hit on this because it just seems like we've come to a really interesting fact about change management. But the collective experience and the diverse background that everybody can bring to the table, I think is enthusiastic. In the beginning, everybody likes to kind of bring their own experience to the table and how they can help the team out and it seems like that collaboration of multiple different backgrounds. I've been in the most private of the private sector, I've been in the most public of the public sector and it just seems that that diverse background that people bring to the table and Victoria you mentioned it might even get more diverse with the workforce dynamics that are going on right now. So how do you all bring that to the table, bring that out, bring that enthusiasm out.

Josh Descoteaux: 25:51

When it comes to procurement, it's kind of funny. Everybody that I talked to, including myself, I kind of was I dropped into procurement. I didn't have the background in procurement and really quickly found out what it was, but then I was able to apply a lot of those experiences to procurement and so that kind of approach to change management I didn't even think about. And so would you agree that, like with this collaboration, is it one of the most important factors of change management. I just never had made that connection.

David Gragan: 26:24

Yeah, Josh, I think that's a really good question and it kind of allows me to circle back to something we said earlier about leadership. You know, I think there we need to recognize that leaders are at all levels in an organization, and creativity is as well. So I think we you know one of our in the change management environment I think it's important to recognize who you know has not only leadership skill but actually has the ear of the people that are reluctant to change and people are. We should just embrace the fact that change is not easy for a lot of people. Change is absolutely invigorating for many others.

David Gragan: 27:07

But I think it's important to you know just one of the sort of soft skills that we must have, I think, is recognizing how to leverage the talents of the people that we work with, how to leverage those and to turn them to your advantage. Find the enthusiastic people in the organization, find them and support them and, you know, help them convey the message and help them. You know, translate the value proposition so that it makes sense to the majority. You probably will never have 100%. You know, people embracing any kind of change. It's just tough. But if you can get the majority, you're well on your way to a successful change.

Kevin Minor: 27:50

So you know, and you guys have been, you guys have had a lot of experience and have been in these roles for a while. So how, how do you see the future of change management, albeit I'll call it change leadership? How do you forecast the future as a leader?

David Gragan: 28:09

Well, I think forecasting the future is pretty difficult. But you know, I mean, a forecast is based on trends, right? It's a? It's a series of actions that occur over time, and and and and. The kind of an analysis of the trends allows you to sort of envision what's just over the horizon. Although it's it may be difficult, it's worth. It's worth deliberative time in our professional lives. It's worth thinking about.

David Gragan: 28:33

How can you best prepare your organization for whatever's coming around the bend? Because I can think back to when I first came into procurement in the state of Indiana. The term e-procurement didn't exist then. Sustainability a lot of the things that we do now were not things we talked about then. None of those was unpredictable, though I wouldn't say any of those just surprised us. The only real surprise that I can think of that has affected us all I mean a complete surprise that was sort of out of the blue and even this is debatable is the pandemic that we've just come through.

David Gragan: 29:07

But for the most part there is the ability to see slightly over the horizon. My background in signals intelligence tells me that in the VHF spectrum we won't go into science too much of it, but there's what's called the four-thirds earth rule that allows you to put radio waves over the horizon it's not direct line of sight. In a certain frequency range we, I think, have the ability to do that as well. You kind of have to pay attention to what's going on around you to be able to see just beyond the horizon. But I think, as I said, I believe it's a skill worth honing. It's something that we each have in us the ability to kind of assess the environment and trends over time. And, to the extent that a human can, we can foresee by trend analysis what's coming down the pike. And we just need to help our staffs be educated about that, help them understand a future that likely is different from the present and, you know, be there to be a partner for them.

Victoria Steeger: 30:11

What you're talking about to me is the word future casting a little bit. No-transcript followed. Maybe it was a colleague, maybe somebody in another agency department, whatever. That were just good. They saw things, they understood things and we believed in them and we followed them, but they weren't in a position of authority over us necessarily. So I would say that anyone listening to this can and should be seeing themselves as a leader, but as a leader, you know you future cast, which is you define well, what kind of time frame am I talking?

Josh Descoteaux: 31:12

That is. That's fantastic and that would be a great point to kind of wrap up on change management. Thank you so much for all of your insightful answers, david and Victoria. So we'll get you out of here just real quick. Do you have any advice for our listeners and our listeners are a wide swath of procurement professionals and everybody outside the procurement offices but just generally, any advice for the listeners outside the procurement offices?

Victoria Steeger: 31:35

but just generally any advice for the listeners. I'll start that way. David can wrap us up with his, his excellent points. Change is common, change is real. Change happens, like I said, it's every day.

Victoria Steeger: 32:02

If you decide to make yourself someone who can be seen as a, as a leader, whether you buy that by title or just by your work in your own personal life. It doesn't have to be at work, it could be in your home life or your social life. But, um, there's a book that it's a little it's's dated, but it's still the 2000s, but it's been a fundamental for me for many, many years and it's called Start With why by a guy named Simon Sinek and he's done talks and things like that you can find. If you don't want to read the book, watch his TED Talk on it. Find the why, or start with why.

Victoria Steeger: 32:32

If you know what you do and you know how to do it, can you really explain why you do it? Why do you work here, why do you do this? And I think that's really the core of change management is getting people to understand the why, because if they understand it and if they understand it, it makes sense, et cetera then they're going to either be somebody who embraces it, or at least not totally resist it. It are all of our lives a little bit better. So to me, I agree, unleashing change my comment is a brilliant thing Read, watch, listen to podcasts.

Victoria Steeger: 33:10

Yes, that should be a leading quote, but I think it is important. It's really easy to get busy and not invest in your own development and if you're not embracing change, your people won't either Right and David.

Kevin Minor: 33:25

What about you? Do you have any advice for our listeners?

David Gragan: 33:27

Yeah, I do. Just building upon that, and, victoria, I'm really glad you said particularly you know what you said at the very end. I think, not only as a CLO, but as a parent and as a member of NASPO and just as a human walking on this earth, I realize that change is like occurring around us every day, and I think there are very few of us who wouldn't consider ourselves lifelong learners. I mean, that's a label we can each attach to ourselves. And if we believe that, the question then becomes well, what are you learning and why are you learning it?

David Gragan: 33:58

And I think what we are learning, in our professional as well as our personal lives, is that you know there's always something to adapt to, always, and in that we are able to do that and that we have the ability to adapt. And as we learn new things, you're in a change management environment every single day. It's so incremental that it may be difficult to recognize, but if you hone those skills, if you recognize that it's a team effort, particularly when you're dealing with an organization like the ones we deal with every single day in procurement and the broader government, the broader client base and the broader base of taxpayers whose money we're able to, you know, commit wisely to good contracts. If you think about it that way, since we're all changing every day, it's really a matter of just framing the problem appropriately, and I think that you know that's worth us spending a little bit of, and I think that's worth us spending a little bit of free thinking time every day. In how do we do that?

Kevin Minor: 35:03

Absolutely Well said. Victoria Steger, chief Learning Officer for the state of Maryland, and David Gregan is the Chief Learning Officer in DC in the Office of Contract and Procurement. Thank you both so much for joining us today. I think we really had some invaluable wisdom from two of our wonderful CLOs and we really appreciate y'all's time today. Thank you so much, thank you hey, thank you.

Kevin Minor: 35:27

Enthusiasm. Well, we've got plenty of that around here, bubba. What's change management look like in your office? What changes are you going through? Maybe you're coming back to the office. Maybe you've got a new e-procurement system you're setting up. Perhaps you're the CLO trying to better understand how to train or engage man. The list goes on and on. Let us know. We would love to hear from you about the changes that you're going through and how you're dealing with them. Email us podcast at naspoorg and again, make sure you go over to thepulsenaspoorg and read those blogs written by your very own NASPO staff. I'm Kevin Miner. Until next time.